In this episode of Retaili$tic, Deborah Weinswig interviews Rick Brindle, a seasoned expert in the retail and CPG industries. They discuss Rick's journey from working on the shop floor at Safeway to leading innovations at major companies like Procter & Gamble and Nabisco. The conversation covers the importance of understanding consumer behavior, the role of technology and data in retail, and the evolving landscape of grocery shopping, including the impact of social media and personalization. Rick shares valuable insights on the significance of relationships in business and offers advice for new graduates considering a career in retail.
The video version is available here.
Takeaways
Rick Brindle emphasizes the importance of customer service learned from his early retail days.
The transition from retail to CPG requires understanding both sides of the business.
R&D in CPG is about anticipating consumer needs, not just product development.
On-shelf availability is crucial for maintaining customer loyalty.
Social media has transformed consumer-brand relationships, allowing for direct interaction.
Personalization in shopping experiences is more valuable than gamification.
The future of grocery shopping is influenced by technology and consumer preferences.
Online grocery shopping is growing, but challenges remain in product quality.
The retail industry offers diverse career paths beyond traditional roles.
Building relationships in retail is key to success and collaboration.
Chapters
00:00 The Journey Begins: From Retail to CPG
08:56 Navigating the CPG Landscape: Insights from P&G to Nabisco
16:10 R&D and Packaging: The Art and Science of Consumer Products
24:25 The Future of Retail: Technology, Media, and Consumer Relationships
29:13 The Evolution of Brand Loyalty
31:42 Consumer Behavior in Grocery Shopping
35:28 Personalization vs. Gamification in Retail
38:09 The Future of Online Grocery Shopping
42:02 The Complexity of Grocery Retail
45:16 Innovations in Product Development
49:07 The Role of Food Safety and Health
52:39 Advice for Future Retail Professionals
Welcome to Retaili$tic, the official podcast of Coresight Research for August 26, 2025. This week, our CEO Deborah Weinswig welcomes Rick Brindle, a true legend of retail with decades of leadership at the companies that shaped our culture. But first, Isla is here from the London office to highlight what you can expect from CoreSight Research this week.
A packed week of insights is here with new reports designed to keep you ahead of the curve. First, our US CPG sales tracker, your monthly pulse check on sales trends across food and beverages, health and beauty, and general merchandise and home care. Next, we're diving into the future of retail with not one, but two retail tech landscape reports, spotlighting the must-know innovators in marketing technology and supply chain tech. And finally, we'll unpack a major policy story how potential SNAP changes and funding cuts could ripple through retailers nationwide. Stay tuned, these reports are packed with insights you won't want to miss.
Thanks, Isla. Now here's Debra to introduce Rob.
Deborah Weinswig (00:02.072)
Today we have the privilege of sitting down with a true industry bridge builder, someone who has walked the aisles of retail, shaped the strategy of the world's most iconic CPG brands, and consistently kept his gaze focused on the future. Rick Brendel's career began on the shop floor at Safeway, where he learned firsthand the rhythms of retail and the pulse of the consumer. Those early days gave him an operational grounding that would serve him well when he stepped across the aisle into the CPG world
with Procter & Gamble immersing himself in data, process, and brand discipline at the very highest level. From there, he joined Nabisco, where heritage brands met the challenge of innovation. It was here that Rick really began blending tradition with technology, recognizing that R &D was not just about recipes and packaging, but about anticipating the consumer's next move. When Nabisco became part of Mondelez, Rick's influence expanded onto the global stage
where he led with conviction that technology and innovation could unlock new frontiers in product development, retail partnerships, and sustainability. Across every chapter, Rick has been a technologist at heart. And that's what I love about him. He's really seen the digital transformation not as a buzzword, but as a mandate. And his career is a masterclass in moving from the shop floor to the C-suite, from the local shelf to the global marketplace, and from the present moment to what's possible next.
Today we will explore the lessons he has learned, the innovations he has championed, and the future he sees for both retail and CPG in a world driven by data, technology, and imagination. Rick, welcome to the show.
Rick Brindle (01:44.311)
Thanks, Deborah. Thank you for that very, very kind introduction.
Deborah Weinswig (01:48.75)
I don't even think it's it. I worked on it and worked on it. I'm like, I still probably could have done a better job because it truly in terms of your background is unlike anything we've seen across retail. let's start. I always like to go back to the beginning. If go back to Safeway, you are on the front lines of retail. What full first, why did you go to Safeway originally? And what did you learn about shoppers, products and
just the pace of business in the grocery world.
Rick Brindle (02:21.815)
Yeah, I mean, what got me to Safeway was in my family. I'm the oldest of six. And in my family, I think you either became a cop or you went to work for Safeway. So when I was 17, I joined Safeway and
literally started, they don't even have this job anymore, but there used to be a job where the shopper would pull in after they paid for their groceries and someone would put their bags in the back of their car. That was my job. And so I just from there went through a number of pretty much worked every department except meat in the store, loved every minute.
Probably cashier and stocking were my favorites. yeah, no, and I actually got a job, got an assignment in Germany while I was with Safeway. So quit college for a little bit and went to Germany and helped kind of teach the Germans how to map market and merchandise a grocery store. We had a German division. So that was fun. But the reason, that's basically what put me through college.
working for Safeway.
Deborah Weinswig (03:36.302)
It's so interesting. I actually worked at a division of Kroger and through high school. And I think from that, I really understood how important customer service was. And even if you made a mistake, as long as you double back very quickly to fix it, that you could win the consumer. And it really probably set me up for a very different focus on my career, like kind of customer first.
So at least that's what, from my perspective, that's kind of what the grocery industry did for me.
Rick Brindle (04:11.381)
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's every day was opening night. I mean, there was nothing ritualistic about the job. I enjoyed meeting people, talking to people in the aisle, helping them out. And, you know, really helped me with my interpersonal skills, confidence, that sort of thing. So yeah, no, I loved it. you know, and I hold high the retail culture because they're just regular folks, you know, that everybody wants to help each
other. I still feel that way to this day about our industry. Probably one of the best gifts I was ever given was from a store manager. I was thinking about quitting college. I was making $7.25 an hour $14.50 on Sunday and $21.75 on holidays. That's big bucks in the eight in the 70s, late 70s. And so my manager said he called me in the office one day and he said Rick
Deborah Weinswig (04:56.845)
Yeah.
Rick Brindle (05:08.467)
Understand you want to join us first you want to quit college and join join us full-time. said, yes, sir I do he said why don't you sit down for a minute and he told me how important an education was How vulnerable he was for not having an education and then went on to say would you do me a favor? Would you stay if you stayed in college? I will give you every hour. I can possibly give you from Friday to Sunday When you come home, he said would you do that for me? And I said sure absolutely
And I mean that saved my life right there. That changed everything. And so, you know, that's one of those give backs that when you turn a certain age and you get to a certain level, you want to give somebody a call and thank them. And I did that. So, you know, that's the kind of people that I believe work in our industry.
Deborah Weinswig (05:58.67)
interesting you bring that up. I, out of my summer internship at Bear Stearns, I had an offer to return full-time and I loved it. I got to spend time in capital markets but ultimately spent the last week, six weeks in equity research, wrote a report, my name on it and worked directly with Dana Telsey and I said to her, like I'm gonna accept it and she's like do not do that. She's like you need to put the, invest the time in yourself, meet with all the banks and see what
what it is that you really want to do. And so I ended up accepting a different offer full time. I spent a few years at Morgan Stanley and then went back to Bear Stearns with Dana. But going back to somebody who cares that much about you, that they put you first versus themselves, that's, I mean, I think we've both been very lucky.
Rick Brindle (06:46.645)
Yeah, no, and the other part of that on the grocery side is...
Just about every grocer and even convenience stores and other channels, they espouse giving their employees education, helping them with their education. Most, if not all of them, have programs where they'll pay half of what you pay and that sort of thing. WAFC is a phenomenal Western Association of Food Change, phenomenal organization that their whole purpose of the association is education for people in our industry.
I mean, that's a real hand up. And we just lost a dear friend, Carol Christensen. God bless her. So, you know, it's who we are. And that's what makes this industry so powerful for me.
Deborah Weinswig (07:39.33)
Well, it goes back to and, you know, kind leading to my next question, right? As you move from, right, the day to day, face to face with the consumer and then kind of moving into CPG, how did the grounding from Safeway change your perspective? And what did you see were some of the biggest differences between retail and CPG in the early days?
Rick Brindle (08:05.376)
Well, I mean...
not only in the early days throughout my career, I pulled from my days in retail because I got a glimpse of the other side. saw how our products actually performed when they went into a store, how they looked on a shelf, how consumers thought about things. And I learned a great deal, but I also learned that, and often is the case when someone would join on the CPG side and didn't have retail experience, there was a high level of
intimidation walking into a grocery store or walking into a buyer's office. And I'd never felt that intimidation because I knew that all they wanted to do was sell more stuff. All they wanted to do was solve problems. And so if you can get, know, if you can see that other side and come in, I think you're incredibly valuable to that CPG, you know, company. And I would offer, I don't know for sure, that the same would be true if you
Deborah Weinswig (08:39.096)
Thank
Rick Brindle (09:06.169)
started in CPG and went to retail. There's a real completion of the total process that you don't get if you're starting on one side or the other and staying there.
Deborah Weinswig (09:20.044)
No, it's interesting. My brother had an opportunity to join P &G after college. Of course, I convinced him to come to Wall Street. But it was amazing how kind of process driven they were. And I think you need kind of process in order to understand where your organization is. I think P &G has had a very interesting path on how they have known a lot of companies they've acquired and just the
I'd say every story is better than the last on how well they do with integration. What did you find was unique about the DNA of PNG?
Rick Brindle (09:57.996)
I loved P &G, I loved every minute of P &G. found they did help you to think in a more structured way. They provided so much data about the shopper, about the consumer, about the category, about your competition, and procedurally how to approach decisions. Very helpful. And I actually took it for granted. When you're in the midst of that and you're enjoying that wealth of data,
I just said we had so many white coats, you know in P &G and they and they would they encouraged you to work on one thing until it was completed and Do that one thing right? When I left P &G It wasn't anything like that. It was you you're your your desk has mounds of paper If you had mounds of paper on your desk or even in your car if you were a sales rep you got
you got some coaching from your boss. So there was nothing cluttered about P &G. was all very structured, not to a fault, but structured to a point where you could, the likelihood is if you followed the process, you would probably get really close to the right idea, the right solution. Yeah.
Deborah Weinswig (11:20.558)
There are very few companies that we see that are like that. And I'm talking from an Alice perspective, looking from the inside out. A lot of the decisions are kind of more art than science. And one of the things, as you're talking about P &G, if a lot of it's process driven, some of the things I start to think about from an AI perspective is how much of that can be automated.
And then when you layer, right, kind of humans on top of it, you can just make better and much more informed decisions. So I don't personally believe that we'll require less humans. I think we'll just have humans doing kind of more value added work. And if, you know, one of the things that very early in kind of my AI, you know, journey was this idea around making sure all processes were documented. Because if you have that, then you know where you can add in automation and
Rick Brindle (11:54.059)
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Weinswig (12:18.446)
where you can add in some of that art to the science. So as you think about kind of moving from a very structured environment to let's say a less structured one, how did that change where you spent your time and how you made decisions?
Rick Brindle (12:35.489)
Well, the first thing I learned, I really tried hard not to do when I joined Nabisco out of P &G, was I really tried never to say the words, well, back at P &G, this is how we did it. I never did that. I couldn't do it. I hated it when I heard it. I was like, guys, don't do that. But in my head, I would see the discipline opportunity. But you're joining another company with a different culture and a different set of brands.
Nabisco were food products and snack products. Different approach than having the 99.9 % cleaning of ivory soap or the...
Perfumes and other such stuff that they had so it was very different, but I did I did really try to Help our company in my world at least You know be somewhat structured and more strategic in the decision-making that they were making decisions that they were making you know and
We were, on the Nabisco side, we were incredibly heavy on great relationships. And I would take that over great data almost every time because it's the power of trust. And so we really played over our weight at Nabisco. We weren't a very large company. We were a big company, but we weren't Procter & Gamble big. But we got a lot of great stuff.
Deborah Weinswig (13:49.581)
Yeah.
Rick Brindle (14:12.685)
accomplished mainly because they knew we were their partner and we were going to if you asked us to try to do something we were going to try to do it maybe create a new product or something you know we would listen to you and that's that was the that's what I learned so you got to kind of juxtapose the process and structure
with great relationships and in my mind that's where synergy really kicks in high gear. One of my favorite books is The Speed of Trust and it's absolutely true. It just cuts through all the mustard when you have a good trusted relationship. Not saying that we didn't have that at Procter & Gamble at all, we did. We did what we told them we were going to do and we delivered
and all of that, but there was also a relationship component at Nabisco that took it to the next level.
Deborah Weinswig (15:10.168)
How do you think if we look at how R &D has changed and with different technologies available, and there's a lot that the grocers are now doing on the private label side and a lot of the brands are doing private label. mean, it's all kind of going through a very interesting dynamic environment right now. How do you see where...
the brands put R &D and technology, like how does that impact and influence not only their impact, but also their future?
Rick Brindle (15:48.376)
I think it's dependent upon the categories and brands that you're working with. I think you've got some brands and categories that are more complex than others. Let's face it, I sold cookies. Yeah. A great thing to sell, but you know, don't have to be a rocket scientist for that. yes, but so I think the R &D that we did at Nabisco was primarily on the shopper.
Deborah Weinswig (16:00.59)
A good thing to sell.
Rick Brindle (16:18.111)
and the consumer and the occasion, the shopper mission, those things as well as what.
what pairs well with our products and how can we partner with those products. On the Procter & Gamble side, I do think the R &D was very much, in addition to consumer, very consumer-laden, but also was very much about the product, very much about the configuration of the product.
Deborah Weinswig (16:49.71)
And then I remember spending some time with a very large grocer and they talked about how much time they spent on packaging, which I thought was interesting. Where did packaging kind of come into play as it relates to the product once, you know, obviously the product was developed.
Rick Brindle (17:07.319)
It's interesting, that was a bit of a pet peeve of mine because in just about every company that I worked with, the packaging was often...
one of the first things a new brand manager would delve into, would want to change, would want to improve. And it would be gorgeous on a big placard. But if you put it on the shelf, that's what I always would try to espouse. Take a moment.
put a few boxes, put a few cases in your trunk and go put it on a shelf and see what the consumer or what the shopper sees. know, often would be the case that we would deemphasize a point on the product that was a very critical point to the shopper.
And they wouldn't see that you know because it was de-emphasized it would made it harder for them to buy the blend or the flavor that they were looking for and you know I would just say just take a few minutes and you know think about it from an operational standpoint. That's what retailers are. They're operators. They understand what and probably one of the biggest pet peeves that retailers had back then. Now I'm talking about a long time ago, Deborah, was
Deborah Weinswig (18:32.428)
Yeah.
Rick Brindle (18:34.585)
Was the circular products, you know, why are you putting a circular product on a square shelf, you know, I How how can we pack this shelf out a little better, you know, and I just felt like that was a pretty common sense
question and what you know or why do you create packaging that I can't get a case and a half on the shelf? That's all I need and so that means that I got a half a case and I can throw a case on but because you don't think about that I got to put product on the very top shelf until it's you know it's that kind of stuff that used to just drive the retailers crazy.
Deborah Weinswig (19:15.698)
I can tell you stories. We did a big project in potato chips and right. We explored all different kinds of bags, right? Like how do you seal them so that they have longer life at the consumer's home? And right. What does maybe the bottom of the bag look like? So they're less, you know, let's say they arrived home in better shape. And yeah, it's funny you say that because ultimately, what everybody. Well, we were super excited, right? We all kind of worked together and came up with them and.
I was like, well, let's go drop it, know, a of the mom pops I know as a favor, like let's just, and you saw on the shelf and I'm like, yeah, that's not gonna work. Because it doesn't, right, it was funny, right, they even had like a test store at HQ and it was right there, it great. And then you like go to the store and you're like, yeah, it's not gonna work in like the real world. And even when someone was like the lighting, like going back to what you said, right, like the product features, right, didn't really kind of stand out. So it is an interesting kind of place to play.
Rick Brindle (20:13.143)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I thought you were going to go in another direction because how many of those bags could even be opened? I mean, my wife is tiny. And so I'll come and I'll see a bag of potato chips and it looks like a raccoon opened it. You know, it's just shredded.
Deborah Weinswig (20:38.166)
I know how tiny D is. mean, like, there are times that I'm like, you know, I just can't, like, I just go out and get the scissors, right? Because I'm like, no matter what, this is not going to work. But I know exactly what you're talking about. It is interesting. And then...
Rick Brindle (20:48.908)
You know.
And one more quick thing, when I was young in the store, would have so many older folks come up to me and say, I can't even read the back of this label. It's too small. I can't read it. And I would go, come on, you can read it. And now I'm that guy.
Deborah Weinswig (21:07.83)
that's interesting, right? If you can't even understand the... I mean, I'll tell you these days, and I mean, yes, I am the below average height for a female, but, you know, over five feet. So, and I will tell you the amount of times I now cannot reach product. And it's not like they have it down below. It's only kind of out of, out of like arm's reach. And, you know, I've started to take photos and send it to people because I'm like, I just can't help myself because...
Rick Brindle (21:29.781)
Yeah.
Deborah Weinswig (21:37.07)
It goes back to making it easy for the customer, also thinking about what it looks like on the shelf. And then how do you think as we move forward, how important, we've seen different retailers, different challenges, but on shelf availability has been a bigger issue than it has in the past.
When you think about that, how does DSD come into play and why are there out of stocks? Because theoretically, you know what you sell. You know if you have it in the back, not you should be able to get back in the stock quickly. This has been one of those questions I have to say. I feel like when I understood the impact of marketing on Charmin, this is that other question that is like the holy grail to get answered.
Rick Brindle (22:27.627)
Yeah, know, there's a lot of stores now have automated ordering.
And so it just happens, but you can always turn that off. So if you've got a, let's say you put an end cap up of Charmin and you've got half the end cap is in the back room, you're gonna turn off that skew until you get right on back room inventory. And so that's a lot of times that'll happen. lot of shipment issues with the port strike that we had a year or so ago, different things like that play into it.
But yeah, that's how it works. But I will tell you that I mean, I think you were with me when we had a NACDS event where we did a market immersion. I think it was in Minneapolis. And we had a group of millennials that we did a panel discussion. I think I led the panel discussion. And one fellow said, and he was I think from a very large major retailer, and his CEO was in the audience.
Deborah Weinswig (23:15.821)
Yes.
Rick Brindle (23:33.074)
He said, you know, he said that I don't ever worry about out of stocks. My parents go to the store. They have an out of stock. They keep it on their list. They come back the next week and they get it the next week. He goes, I've got this thing in my pocket that, that's my grandson. I've got this thing in my pocket that.
that all I have to do is pull it out and order it it'll be at my house by the time I get home. And that was a chilling remark for senior executive retailers in the room because it was true. It was so true. Everybody just kind of went, man, this kid's right. So yeah, auto stocks are not a good thing. They're a terrible thing as a matter of fact. It gives your competition an opportunity to get into that shopper's house.
It's not good.
Deborah Weinswig (24:24.238)
I think for a while, like in 24, we saw consumers visiting more right on a trip out. They would visit more retailers. A lot of it was kind of price shopping and deal shopping and all that, especially in grocery. This year, we've seen that kind of retrace a bit. And so I do think that consumers are very kind of time focused. And so if you're consistently out of stock on products that they need, I do think that they will switch behaviors.
Rick Brindle (24:47.841)
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Weinswig (24:54.619)
And maybe they're ordering some of those products online, I think in often cases, they're switching retail.
Rick Brindle (25:02.283)
Yeah, we have a, we had a product in our home that very recently that it was a very, it was a staple in our household and it was, could, we couldn't find it on any shelf anywhere. and we figured, well, they must've discontinued it. We did find a private label at a retailer that was somewhat, was very close to that product. And that one product sent us from one retailer to another retailer for our entire pack, our entire,
basket, you know, and so that shows you the impact of out-of-stocks in the household of shoppers.
Deborah Weinswig (25:40.878)
It's really interesting you say that. So I attended a very small dinner with a marketing professor from University of Chicago. And he said 4 % of product determines, right, which retailer you go to. And he said it can be, if 1 % of that is it's in stock or not in stock, it also goes back to some of local flavor. But if you think about it's such a small percentage that determines kind of your consumer continuing to show up.
how kind of fickle the consumer really is, but I don't know if we always, and that goes back to why I think your background at Safeway played such a significant role in your career because you always put the customer first.
Rick Brindle (26:24.917)
Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. You put the customer first, you put your associates first too, particularly in retail, because they make or break a retailer for sure. Yeah, no, it's very much the case.
Deborah Weinswig (26:40.398)
No, I mean, it makes a ton of sense. So as we think about some of the changes from a tech perspective, and there's a lot happening in the CPGN grocery and their relationships with each other, how do you think about retail media? We had a fascinating conversation with somebody you definitely know. And I asked him and he said, let me put it you straight, which I appreciate, because that's how I like it. And he said, it's a 12 to retail and it's a two to us.
And so he said, we understand it, but he said if we focus on it too much, we're going to start to lose kind of like our thread. How do you think that changes the relationship and do you think it changes the industry longer term?
Rick Brindle (27:25.455)
I don't quite know how that's funded by CPGs. don't know if there is a fund for that. I think the prevalent point of view is that those monies come out of marketing dollars that would otherwise go direct to consumer. When I was in the game, there was a pretty hard wall between marketing dollars and merchandising dollars.
that wall and I believe that's either being crossed now or
Yeah, I guess if in fact they're using media dollars to fund that, then I think your media should compete with the media that's available elsewhere. That might be social media, might be network media, might be whatever media. You have to compete with that. I'm not sure that that's the case right now. So I...
I think where you get to kind of an area where you get into like social media and merchandising around social media.
I think capabilities determine that. In some cases, you have the capabilities to drive volume via your social. In other cases, a retailer might not have those capabilities. So a manufacturer has to figure out how to keep that equal, okay? In terms of here's what we can do with one that's got the capabilities, and here's what we can do for the ones that don't have that capability.
Rick Brindle (29:03.147)
more and more they're getting the capability, more and more they're getting apps, they're they're leveraging social pretty regularly. There's a tick shop or talk shop, I guess, and all the social shopping functions. I'm fascinated by that. it's got to compare with other medias or your ROI is gonna just tank.
Deborah Weinswig (29:13.965)
Yeah.
Deborah Weinswig (29:30.734)
Well, the question goes back to how do you measure it? Right. There's there's a lot of questions I think that that prevail right now. And I'll tell you, we haven't said this much, but we we had a few CPG companies come to us to think about how do you go direct to consumer? Right. Because if if there's now this this tax or this toll right to be on the digital shelf or the physical shelf and you know, and you also are and now you have to pay
There's also a significant toll for the data to understand the consumer. And if you can start to kind of go direct and there's many, there are many things that are evolving that would allow that to happen. Social shopping is one of them. But what we've started to see, bring it up Rick, and not many people have is I think how some of the brands are leaning into social media. And I think it's fascinating. don't know, I don't spend, I do for work purposes. But what I find so interesting is when a...
a product starts to have its own social media page and how the consumer, like how much they care and how much they put into that, that starts to show you think how the consumer's relationship to brands has changed and maybe in some cases the retailers are not paying enough attention to that.
Rick Brindle (30:52.043)
Yeah, maybe. mean, there's a lot in there. But, you know, it could also mean that, you before social, before internet, consumers were laser focused on brands that they loved, but they didn't have a media to discuss that. They didn't have a way to talk to that brand. You know, they didn't have an avid, besides a letter.
or a telephone call to an avenue to offer ideas or to be a part of that brand's development. Now they have that opportunity and I think that's what's happening now is that consumers are active in that way. If you're a brand right now, if you're a startup brand, you want to be viral. You want to go viral. You want to get that hit.
It's a crap shoot. can, you maybe will get it. You maybe won't. But you know, everybody's trying. That's for sure. You know, you know, the, there's a lot going on right now. My goodness. If you can have a jeans hit the, you know, my jeans are blue. I just want you to know that they're blue. But, but the, you know, I mean, it's, I think that shoppers and consumers have always wanted.
Deborah Weinswig (31:56.832)
Unbelievable.
Rick Brindle (32:08.503)
to have a relationship with the brands that they have. I sold Crisco. There were people that I couldn't talk about Crisco without hearing about somebody's pie crust or the best fried chicken they've ever had and all of that. So it's just a different.
Deborah Weinswig (32:24.014)
I have to interrupt. I like literally when you said it, I started salivating.
Rick Brindle (32:30.007)
You might want to get a little something to eat.
Deborah Weinswig (32:35.028)
you think about all the great, I'm like, yeah, we use it when like we put it in the bottom, our pans when we're baking or like, like you said, I mean, like, it's like, it is interesting how sometimes it's hearing a certain word, right? It, it, it, yeah, you're, it's like loyalty, but it's, it's beyond that.
Rick Brindle (32:50.071)
So, you know, I mean, it's here, there. mean, when people were wearing Coca-Cola t-shirts in the 60s, you know, so, you know, it's just a new way to express that, I think, is how, and it's also an interactive way. I mean, love that stuff. You know, they really want to get into that. you know, but yeah, no, I think the capabilities are that way now.
I'm obviously, like many of us, a little concerned about too much of that because it's kind of nice to actually go out with humans and talk to them face to face and shake hands and that kind of stuff. But a lot of people are spending a lot of time on digital now.
Deborah Weinswig (33:38.222)
It's interesting, we were with about two dozen earlier stage or emerging brands and we were talking to them just about kind of our point of view from spending some of the time in China with live streaming. And most, I'd say maybe six out of the 20, there was 25, six of them had like a major hit on TikTok, but they were all pretty open. They're like, right, we try to recreate it and we...
we were unable to, right? Because it's hard to kind of really imprint what made it work. And so when it's difficult to repeat, and when you as the brand aren't sure, right? You may run out of stock as well. mean, those are some of the things that can be pretty interesting. How much do you think the consumer, going back to your Safeway days, how much do you think...
Rick Brindle (34:13.505)
Right. Right.
Deborah Weinswig (34:34.488)
they're interested in the gamification of shopping.
Rick Brindle (34:41.911)
I think once they get in the store, their only interest is to fill their basket and get out. I recall when we were going down the path of online grocery, there was a fact about out of the top 25 things that consumers...
enjoy doing or to do every week grocery shopping was 24th, which was lower than going to the dentist. And that was a terrible fact. We've come so much further along since then. The stores are much better than they were at the in the early, well, I guess it was in the mid 90s. And so but they're home much better. But that was a fact. The other fact was that 78 percent
of the products that a consumer put in their basket they bought every week. So then you've got a high level of redundancy there. It's almost like mowing the lawn or doing the laundry. You know, there was no adventure. So that's why, you know, they would pursue online grocery because they just create that basket. They click the buy this basket and add a few things. so I think that gamification
You know, I haven't seen a whole lot, maybe in, you know, in a convenience store, maybe gamification would work because that's a different mission, a different mindset when they go on a convenience store. But in a grocery store, they just want to get the food that they're going to need for that week for their family. And, you know, buy the freshest produce, the best meats, all of that. So I'm not sure about gamification in grocery. I mean, it be some folks out there that not going to like that comment, but and I apologize.
you
Deborah Weinswig (36:30.254)
Well, I think what we're seeing more is, and I think it's broad in retail is around personalization, but obviously you have to be willing to share your data with the retailer brand and there has to be some value that you see. And I think we're still in the early days of that, right? We've been just right from a tech stack perspective, just having right CDPs and all of that kind of in place so that they can extract the data that they need.
But it is interesting when you start to think about the amount of people I know who have food allergies, myself included. But if you can get a more tailored, and I'll tell you, was interesting. When I was diagnosed with celiac at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, I kid you not, the doctor said to me, and it was like one of those things, you should go to your local Whole Foods and ask them to kind of walk you around the store and show you what you can eat.
Rick Brindle (37:05.012)
Right.
Deborah Weinswig (37:29.798)
And that's I did and they were amazing. But it is interesting in terms of just, I think for a lot of people, the lack of information about their condition, how to kind of take care of it. And I know there's some really large grocers like Kroger who really try to lean into this, right, to help the consumer. I think it's really interesting, right, when you start to think about, I've always thought about, know you think this way as well, is that, if you think about food as medicine,
And 70 to 80%, depending on whose numbers you look at, of what you eat is what determines your health. I mean, the opportunity in a grocer or for a brand, it's immense. It's the opportunity, but also it could be the burden.
Rick Brindle (37:59.894)
Right.
Rick Brindle (38:15.979)
Yeah, I think today's generation and the millennials prior to them are really the generations that put their money where their mouth is on health. I think they've really, they are very ardent. They do see food as fuel. They see fuel as medicine. They make choices around that. When I was in the e-commerce side, you we had a vision of you and myself would go into our online grocer and we would have a different profile. We would check the
profile yours, you say I'm celiac, you know, I might say I'm trying to avoid these foods, sugars or what, might be a diabetic, I'm not thank goodness, but I could. And you've checked those boxes and all of a all you see in that grocery store online are the products you can consume or feel good about consuming. And I think we've moved into that genre now, we're getting close. I've talked to a number of folks that are saying that's right around the horizon.
to be able to have my store, my grocery store. And I had in the items that I saw, they didn't make any, you mentioned gamification and you mentioned personalization. I think personalization far outweighs gamification in the grocery business. And if you can show me just those items that I can or want to consume, or my family can or wants to consume, that's a huge service. And I believe Kroger started some of that
And I noticed that Amazon fresh is is starting to pop some more stores up and you know, maybe they'll take that approach as well But but you know, it's it's out there the technologies there and it makes sense. I Yeah, I think that's the way, you know, that's the way it should be frankly
Deborah Weinswig (40:06.67)
Were you surprised?
during after the pandemic, however we wanna look at the timeframe, right? We saw outsized growth of online for obvious reasons. And many had predicted that kind of that line would keep its direction, but we've obviously seen it kind of fall back. I've always believed that, right, for certain products, for certain people, right, you know, for me it's like apples, right? Because if I order them online, like there's a bag of eight, three are bruised.
And it's more just a hassle, right? Like of all that, where, what do you think it takes to see, you know, 20, 25 % penetration in grocery? And, and is there a catalyst to get us there? Or is it just kind of trudging along?
Rick Brindle (41:00.427)
Yeah, I don't know what the percentage is now. I know it's not 20, 25%. Yeah. You know, time will tell. I know when we first started down this track, the shopper felt a level of guilt to have her product, her...
Deborah Weinswig (41:05.206)
It's like 12.
Rick Brindle (41:17.707)
grocery products delivered to the house. When we talked to female shoppers, they would say, feel like that's part of what I offer to, that's my gift to the family, is to go and shop for them and to have someone bring it in is kind of like cheating. Well, that generation has dissipated. You now have two or three generations post that that are very comfortable with ordering online. They don't see it and shouldn't have seen it.
the first place is some sort of a deficit. But, and so I think it's going to grow over time, but what you don't know...
is what other factors are going to contribute to that. Okay, if we go, if we have AI, if we have robotics, if we have three day work weeks, people might just want to go to a grocery store. They might want to shop. They might want to do something, you know, and where we started in online grocery was when we were all very busy and we still are all very busy, but they're, you know, the, the promise land looks like, you know, I'm going to have a robot mowing the lawn or, whatever. And so that, opens up a whole lot of opportunities.
fun stuff. So just something to think of. It may create some canning thing where people want to start canning again. It's amazing how one shift shifts all the other things, right?
Deborah Weinswig (42:44.14)
It's funny, my dad who's literally a rocket scientist, his greatest joy, and I'm not sure why, he loves, and he spends hours in the grocery store. He goes up and down every aisle. He wants to spend time looking at new products. And for him, I think that it's almost like meditation. His mind kind of quiets, and he's very present. And so it was funny you talked about people having a list. I never learned, because my-
That was just not the household I lived in. We would go up and down. Probably why I became a regionalist. We'd go up and down every island. Sometimes we'd go up and down the same aisle several times, right? And that's why I always saw electronic shelf labels. I've been a big believer. We did a project like a decade ago. I think it was too early. But to me, the more information, but this goes back to gamification. I always, like we all, especially since I don't shop from a list, I'll always get home. I I'm fortunate because the grocery store is like across the street.
Rick Brindle (43:16.79)
Yeah.
Deborah Weinswig (43:42.19)
but I'll be like, oh, I forgot this, that, or the other. And so my whole thing is, if you kind of opt in, and you opt in for personalized messages, especially from an ESL perspective, and it's like, you know, okay, when I buy tuna fish, I usually buy some kind of cracker or whatnot, like a melba toast, something. yeah, gluten-free, yeah. And so the challenge is, I forget that half the time, and I'm already thinking about like the sparkling water. So I think that, and I mean,
Rick Brindle (44:00.194)
hope it waits in.
Deborah Weinswig (44:11.97)
And then I think you get into personalized pricing, which is a whole other opportunity I think is available. I mean, to me, and just, you Rick, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, I've always been obsessed, you know, and I knew Steve Byrd very, very well, right, with grocery in particular because of the amount of data points. And, you know, I think so many people look at it things, first of all, it's not simple industry in any way, shape or form, but it doesn't necessarily, I think, get the multiple or the attention.
as apparel, footwear, accessories, or hard lines, yet it is so much more complex because you have a highly perishable product. But also, if you look at the data and the changing consumer, I'm like, you see it in grocery first.
Rick Brindle (44:56.641)
Yeah, yeah, no you do you do you see a lot of things, know, you see inflation you see deflation you see You know flavor trends you see I'm an absolute retail geek I mean, there's not a vacation that I've ever been on that dad didn't disappear for a couple of mornings And they knew I was walking stores. I just love walking stores but yeah, it's
you know different different i love going to fancy food because you see trends that that are emerging when you walk through the whole floor like okay well let's see it seems like oils are having a trend here or you know or or or different things like that and but yeah i i find i find grocery shopping you know i mean i wouldn't say that it's
you know, therapeutic in any way, but it does, but I do look at grocery shopping a lot different than I think the average shopper does. You know, I'm looking at power bars and why these bars are selling and is it protein? it, what is it? know, and so it's a lot of different things. And also some of it's frustrating, like, you know, how many different flavors of orange juice do we need? You know, I mean, milk now, used to be easy to buy milk. It's not easy to buy milk anymore.
Deborah Weinswig (46:10.87)
No, or mustard for that. mean, I'm like, do we need 100 skews of mustard? I'm not sure that we need that, right? mean, and it goes back to like, where do you need choice? where can you also eventually, think, I'm going back to the healthcare side, where can we start to bring in more healthcare into the box so that, you know, instead of getting 7 % of the customer's wallet, maybe you get 10%. That to me, I think is, and I do think going back to your Amazon Whole Foods and I mean, we're
Rick Brindle (46:13.353)
Yeah.
Deborah Weinswig (46:40.172)
I mean, I don't think I can walk five blocks in Manhattan now and not see a Whole Foods. And I think they, especially with the acquisition of One Medical, I think they really understand the impact of physical retail on a consumer searching to do more for their health. And I think it's going to be fascinating to see how that kind of plays out long term. So I have, I want to be mindful of the time. And so if any of these questions you don't like, you can just say like pass, but we have the quick Rick tech round.
Rick Brindle (47:07.063)
All right.
Deborah Weinswig (47:10.238)
And so I put together five questions. So just say what comes to mind or pass. Yep, exactly. Phil, Phil, Phil, you're our friend, OK? Phil produces our podcast, so just a big shout out to him because he's amazing. All right, so number one, most underrated technology in retail or CPG today.
Rick Brindle (47:10.292)
God.
Rick Brindle (47:16.321)
Can I phone a friend? Okay.
Rick Brindle (47:38.135)
That's tough. Because I'm always, I'm all in the AI thing and all the other underrated technology. This is going to be a weak one, but I would say, you know, calculating the change for the shopper.
Deborah Weinswig (47:55.298)
Well, or what's actually really interesting is we were with a very, very, very large tech company and they were thinking about kind of smart carts. It was a fascinating, I have to say it was like one of the most fascinating conversations, but I'm like, when you look at things from purely a tech perspective and it does explain a lot. And so I was with the CEO and there's like 10 people taking notes and he's like, you know, do people really care right while they're shopping about adding up what they've, what like the cost of what's in the cart? And I'm like,
I'm trying to think about how to like, oh, I think it's like 67 % of people are living paycheck to paycheck, right? And you don't want to get up to the front and be embarrassed. I it's one of reasons that dollar stores came out in the first place, right? Because I can add five plus one plus 10, right, pretty easily. And so I do think it's interesting, right, the change, but also is there a way for the consumer to know kind of along the way, right, what the total is? All right, so that's number one.
Rick Brindle (48:27.263)
sure some many are I'm sure many are
Rick Brindle (48:39.265)
Right. Right.
Rick Brindle (48:54.007)
You know, was thinking you were talking about low tech, but it's, go ahead, go ahead. This is at speed round. No, I thought you were talking about low tech solutions. So go ahead.
Deborah Weinswig (48:59.532)
No, look!
Deborah Weinswig (49:04.974)
Alright, number two, a tech trend you think is overhyped.
Rick Brindle (49:10.663)
Overhyped.
Rick Brindle (49:17.867)
I don't know. I don't. overhyped trend.
Deborah Weinswig (49:27.47)
What do you think about robotics in the store?
Rick Brindle (49:30.507)
I don't think it's overhyped. think it's going to be very much a part of the industry. That was the first thing I thought about. know, what's the two most hyped things right now are robotics and AI, in my opinion. the, know, now I, and I, yeah, I can't come up with anything that's overhyped.
Deborah Weinswig (49:52.46)
Yeah, it was fascinating. I felt very fortunate to be invited by Goldman Sachs to, I had two folks from BJ's Wholesale Club on the stage, their head of supply chain and their head of stores. And we talked about, they've done a rollout with Cymbi and just, I think no matter how they slice or dice it, this was more to be kind of a factual conversation about what they're seeing. they were like,
our in-stacks are better, how we communicate with our customer, relationship with our vendors. And it was interesting because everything you thought that it would do, not only was it ahead of the curve, but they were trying to kind of accelerate the rollout because of the ROI they'd gotten. And that's just, that's not something we hear often. So I think that that's interesting. right, number three, your favorite product innovation from your career.
Rick Brindle (50:35.275)
Mm-hmm.
Rick Brindle (50:43.321)
gosh, favorite product innovation, know, believe it or not, it was one of the more recent ones when Oreo came out with gluten-free Oreo.
Deborah Weinswig (50:52.162)
Well that was gonna be mine, and then when they came out with mint, I'm like, and now get double stuff? I'm like, stop.
Rick Brindle (50:57.463)
You know that I don't know about the double stuff but the the mint and the regular was I was like I was like gluten-free Oreos What's that all about? But you know what in my career? I never had more telephone calls or emails or texts from from consumers thanking me Like I had anything to do with it
thanking me for gluten-free Oreo because it's for the first time in their child's life, they're going to be able to enjoy an Oreo or something. And I thought, well, that was pretty interesting. So I'd have to say that. And I would say in general Oreo, I'll tell you another quick story. I had a friend who's had his father was very deep into Alzheimer's. And he told me, said, you know, the only way I can get my dad back is if I bring a box of Oreos with
Deborah Weinswig (51:42.477)
Hmm.
Rick Brindle (51:49.878)
He said it and all of sudden it's like that, it snaps. It's his childhood, he starts thinking about, and we're together for those moments. And I thought, well, I don't know a brand that can pull that off. that just warmed my heart to hear that.
Deborah Weinswig (52:03.694)
That's very meaningful. mean, I'll tell you how I know that gluten-free Oreos are all that is because that's what I buy. I'm the only seal I can our household. And the other day I went to get one. And I mean, I will have all three. Right. When I go to the store, I kind of hide them. I have like my own shelf, my like gluten-free shelf. I'll hide them. They were all gone. And so, I mean, hey, it's the only Oreo I've had since 2010. So I may not be, but
Rick Brindle (52:23.339)
You're good. They're good.
Deborah Weinswig (52:32.662)
I think they're great and like I said, we're literally buying them on a weekly basis, although I don't get that many of them. that's how I know. I think it, yeah, I think to be able to kind of have packaging that looks like everybody else and whatnot, and I think for kids, right, that's huge. All right, number four, and this may be the same as number three, one R &D decision you are proudest of.
Rick Brindle (52:58.763)
Well, yeah, what I'm most proud of right now is I took a pretty hard stance on food dyes over the last couple of years. And because I've known a number of issues associated with food dyes and...
It made no sense to me that we would put things in food that we wouldn't put on our skin. And so I kind of jumped into that one. I'm very pleased with what's happening. And I truly believe when I talked to retailers about it, they were like dumbfounded. They were like, wait, what? And they were all over it. So I do believe that the retailer community played a key role in this, and certainly in terms of the
enabling a solution. And so, you know, and I truly don't believe that our companies would ever do anything to harm the consumer. think somewhere along the way, I think the Food and Drug Administration lost their way. It used to be when I was with Procter that
We were constantly in touch with Food and Drug and they kept us way in the center of the lane. No white, not on the white line. And I think over time that relationship changed in our industry. Not sure why, probably got a little bit to do with money. But I'm really happy to see that we're, as a industry, focused on removing food die-
and trying to make our products more healthy, particularly against the same brands in other parts of the world.
Deborah Weinswig (54:44.864)
Yeah, it's really interesting you bring that up because when that topic first came to light, as a researcher, I went kind of way really far down the rabbit hole. And I was surprised by kind of how many challenges there are. And I think this is just the beginning. I do appreciate that we are all so much better informed.
And a lot of what I read is just that the FDA just got overwhelmed, right? Maybe it goes back to the structure or operations or process, but right, that they had kind of had another process for lot of approvals, which led to us having things in our food that probably wasn't the best for us and longevity. And so I do think we're on a path to see that change. think that the consumer has kind of spoken that.
Rick Brindle (55:22.881)
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Weinswig (55:40.824)
They're very supportive of that. And I agree with you. It was one of those things that I didn't expect to learn so much from going on that journey, but I've also been excited to see kind of how the industry has reacted. All right, so number five, what is the technology you wish you had access to when you started at Safeway? So we're going way, way back.
Rick Brindle (56:04.983)
Ah, scanners. That's easy. I used to, you know, when I started, it was you way too young to remember this, but there were cash registers that had a row of nines, a row of eights, a row of sevens. That was my cash register. And that was the technology of the day. It went from that to just a square with one through 10, one through zero, zero through nine.
And then after I moved on, they went to scanners. I'm going, that's just not fair. That's not fair.
Deborah Weinswig (56:39.918)
Well, it's fascinating now. I was at NRF APAC in Singapore this year in June, and I met with Zebra, Diebold Nixdorf, and GK Software. And what was so interesting is not only how a lot of this technology can help with shrink, right, intentional shrink, if you will, but also age verification. And so if it's like the machine versus it's the associate, I think it's a lot.
easier and just seeing kind of even in the shrink side of it, how right the tech can be like, oh, you know, they'll go back and actually, I it was I was sitting there like honestly dumbfounded because an NRF in January, right, this was all kind of theoretical. And to have the tech right going back to like the speed of development with AI, it was showing the consumer right. Are you you sure you don't want to kind of like rescan that it's showing them like putting their hand over the barcode? And and I was like, but you know, it's
Rick Brindle (57:27.82)
Yeah.
Rick Brindle (57:34.686)
is that right?
Deborah Weinswig (57:38.478)
It's good because there's not an associate in the middle of it. Two, right, the consumer can make the decision, either they're going to re-scan it or not. And three, when it comes to age verification, right, you're talking about, right, you know, a lot of people, you know, taking out your license and this, that, and the other, the time that that saves, but also just the much better experience for the associate and the consumer. Yeah, it's...
Rick Brindle (58:04.321)
that you put them in a bad spot.
Deborah Weinswig (58:07.918)
It's fascinating. So I want to thank you for such a rich conversation. And I want to leave with one very last question, which is for those individuals graduating college today and as they're thinking about where they want to work, we've seen, I have to say, an impressive interest in retail. And I think a lot of it's around the data, right, the amount of data. But
What advice do you have to people as they begin their careers and what are some of words of wisdom you wish you had had when you started your career?
Rick Brindle (58:45.695)
Well, first of all, I'm just so passionate about young people considering our industry. When you think about it, I don't care what you want to do. If you want to be a doctor, a lawyer, a real estate, if you want to build, you want to be, if you want to manage or lead, that can all be done in our industry. And you can shift around. You can move from one function to the next. It's a rich, very rich career. It's not just about stacking peas.
It's not about putting milk in bags and all that stuff. It's much bigger and much better than that. It's also a small industry. I'm blown away. And you know this, how many people you know throughout the industry at very high levels, at all different levels. it's not this behemoth that you can't get your arms around. And the culture is incredible. It's all about they're just regular folks wanting
to succeed. Nobody wakes up in the morning looking for ways to screw up your day. You know, it's a great industry and I highly recommend it. I was so proud our daughter decided she wanted to go into our industry. So she did that, you know, after she went to a couple of other industries and it was a learning experience for me how different the cultures are within other industries than ours. So yeah, no, it's a very collegial industry. Now what was your other question?
Deborah Weinswig (01:00:15.81)
So as you think about kind of how a lot of folks who are graduating, right, how they think about data from our industry, right? And so is that a bigger draw to the industry than kind of maybe what it used to be? Because data is a new oil and how you can understand the consumer, how you can understand the brands, how you can understand your own performance, right? It's like lightning fast now.
Rick Brindle (01:00:38.901)
Yeah, it is. also, you know, the supply chain technologies that we have now that are emerging. I mean, it's fascinating. We're getting a lot of young people want to be part of logistics supply chain, that sort of thing. So it's, you know, it's a science. There's many sciences within our industry. you know, and leadership is a big deal, too. Being a great leader, being a, you know, and there's a lot of mentoring going on. So it's, yeah, no, I think it's a great
industry to be a part of it. I wouldn't change a thing. I really wouldn't. I would have stayed and done exactly what I did and it was all by luck. All of it.
Deborah Weinswig (01:01:19.126)
so much. Well, you create your own luck and Rick, you've been an amazing mentor to so many of us. And I think that your words of wisdom carry a very heavy weight. Thanks for joining us today. everyone on this podcast, you know, you are very fortunate to hear from Rick who is truly a legend in retail. Thanks again.
Rick Brindle (01:01:30.145)
Thank you for having me.
Rick Brindle (01:01:38.84)
Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Deborah Weinswig (00:35.864)
Thanks, Deborah, and thank you for joining us this week. Corsight Research is here to help brands, retailers, and retail tech companies chart a path in a challenging market. Visit us at corsight.com to access over 7,000 reports, data banks, videos, webinars, podcast episodes, event recaps, and more. Have a wonderful day, and we'll see you next week.